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	<title>Comments on: STUFF AND NONSCIENCE</title>
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	<link>http://climatedenial.org/2007/03/14/stuff-and-nonscience/</link>
	<description>Charting the disconnect between climate science and action</description>
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		<title>By: richard</title>
		<link>http://climatedenial.org/2007/03/14/stuff-and-nonscience/comment-page-1/#comment-7867</link>
		<dc:creator>richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jul 2007 02:43:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climatedenial.org/2007/03/14/stuff-and-nonscience/#comment-7867</guid>
		<description>Leila,

&#039;Gravity&#039; is a concept which corresponds to a variety of phenomenological observations; the theory of gravity is not in any way proven by the evidence which you give (&#039;when you let go of something in the air it falls down&#039;). As you correctly imply, &#039;gravity&#039; is the outcome of a consensus shaped around empirical induction; that does not mean it is &#039;true&#039;, merely that it&#039;s our most established theory to date as to why when we drop things they tend to fall down. 

Objects could feasibly be released in air and not fall down: inside a space station for instance. Would this mean there&#039;s no such thing as gravity? Well, no, not in itself, but the process of analogising in this fashion points out that our speculative horizons can revolve around concretisations of inductive methodology. 

One well-known example of such concretisation is atomic theory. &#039;Bracketing theory&#039; is used by many physicists to re-articulate what the rest of us call &#039;atomic theory&#039;. The notion that atoms are tiny little balls that comprise bread and plastic alike is a legacy of the Greek philosopher Demokrites. For physicists it is fiction.

In the case of climate change, we have records of varying temperature levels across the globes, and a consensus-driven postulate that certain consequences of human behaviour explain these varying temperature levels. On the basis of that, we strive to change our behaviour; but some will argue that this is all in vain, inasmuch as there are other causal agents at work.

For the record, I believe loosely in anthropogenic climate change -- as a species we&#039;re doing something which could prove highly problematic, even deadly -- but I know highly qualified meteorologists who don&#039;t, if only because they reject orthodoxies of Greenhouse gas emissions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leila,</p>
<p>&#8216;Gravity&#8217; is a concept which corresponds to a variety of phenomenological observations; the theory of gravity is not in any way proven by the evidence which you give (&#8217;when you let go of something in the air it falls down&#8217;). As you correctly imply, &#8216;gravity&#8217; is the outcome of a consensus shaped around empirical induction; that does not mean it is &#8216;true&#8217;, merely that it&#8217;s our most established theory to date as to why when we drop things they tend to fall down. </p>
<p>Objects could feasibly be released in air and not fall down: inside a space station for instance. Would this mean there&#8217;s no such thing as gravity? Well, no, not in itself, but the process of analogising in this fashion points out that our speculative horizons can revolve around concretisations of inductive methodology. </p>
<p>One well-known example of such concretisation is atomic theory. &#8216;Bracketing theory&#8217; is used by many physicists to re-articulate what the rest of us call &#8216;atomic theory&#8217;. The notion that atoms are tiny little balls that comprise bread and plastic alike is a legacy of the Greek philosopher Demokrites. For physicists it is fiction.</p>
<p>In the case of climate change, we have records of varying temperature levels across the globes, and a consensus-driven postulate that certain consequences of human behaviour explain these varying temperature levels. On the basis of that, we strive to change our behaviour; but some will argue that this is all in vain, inasmuch as there are other causal agents at work.</p>
<p>For the record, I believe loosely in anthropogenic climate change &#8212; as a species we&#8217;re doing something which could prove highly problematic, even deadly &#8212; but I know highly qualified meteorologists who don&#8217;t, if only because they reject orthodoxies of Greenhouse gas emissions.</p>
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		<title>By: Leila</title>
		<link>http://climatedenial.org/2007/03/14/stuff-and-nonscience/comment-page-1/#comment-5573</link>
		<dc:creator>Leila</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2007 20:50:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climatedenial.org/2007/03/14/stuff-and-nonscience/#comment-5573</guid>
		<description>Pearl- It is also generally acknowledged that when you let go of something in the air it falls down. Gravity is both a scientific and a public consensus...

As to the more problematic question, of why (if it is so well understood and known about) &#039;nothing&#039; is being done about climate change. How many people with the ability to get a global shift and change will gain by doing so? Who wants to give up their cars, cheap flights, and new gadgets every year? Those who will lose most and suffer are the majority of the worlds population without these things - the same people who have the smallest voice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pearl- It is also generally acknowledged that when you let go of something in the air it falls down. Gravity is both a scientific and a public consensus&#8230;</p>
<p>As to the more problematic question, of why (if it is so well understood and known about) &#8216;nothing&#8217; is being done about climate change. How many people with the ability to get a global shift and change will gain by doing so? Who wants to give up their cars, cheap flights, and new gadgets every year? Those who will lose most and suffer are the majority of the worlds population without these things &#8211; the same people who have the smallest voice.</p>
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		<title>By: Pearl</title>
		<link>http://climatedenial.org/2007/03/14/stuff-and-nonscience/comment-page-1/#comment-5412</link>
		<dc:creator>Pearl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2007 15:20:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climatedenial.org/2007/03/14/stuff-and-nonscience/#comment-5412</guid>
		<description>Ok, during the rise of National Socialism, it was a general consensus in Germany that Jews are a problem. During a time span in history, it was a general consensus that the earth is flat, etc. Just two of millions of examples. As I already mentioned above, general consensus is not an indicator of truth. Thus, in my opinion, it can&#039;t be considered as an argument or whatsoever. You can say that climate change due to human activity is real because of X and Y, but to say that the majority believes it and that&#039;s why it is true, is imho not appropriate. Scientific truth is not a democratic decision process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, during the rise of National Socialism, it was a general consensus in Germany that Jews are a problem. During a time span in history, it was a general consensus that the earth is flat, etc. Just two of millions of examples. As I already mentioned above, general consensus is not an indicator of truth. Thus, in my opinion, it can&#8217;t be considered as an argument or whatsoever. You can say that climate change due to human activity is real because of X and Y, but to say that the majority believes it and that&#8217;s why it is true, is imho not appropriate. Scientific truth is not a democratic decision process.</p>
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		<title>By: Pearl</title>
		<link>http://climatedenial.org/2007/03/14/stuff-and-nonscience/comment-page-1/#comment-4936</link>
		<dc:creator>Pearl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Apr 2007 18:00:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climatedenial.org/2007/03/14/stuff-and-nonscience/#comment-4936</guid>
		<description>It seeks to answer a question that has puzzled me for years: why, when the evidence is so strong, and so many agree that this is our greatest problem, are we doing so little about jews?

I just replaced climate change by jews in order to show the absurdity of the argument. General consensus does not determine the degree of truth. I&#039;m not a climate change denier nor a climate change apologist, but it seems really problematic to take always the &quot;general consensus&quot;-argument as a justification, considering all the stupidity that has spread in the name of &quot;general consensus&quot;.

[George write- this is a baffling comment Pearl. Jews are not a problem and never have been one- but there is an overwhelming consensus that many millions were brutally murdered and that we should not forget the crime. Isn&#039;t it sometimes worth going with the consensus?]
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seeks to answer a question that has puzzled me for years: why, when the evidence is so strong, and so many agree that this is our greatest problem, are we doing so little about jews?</p>
<p>I just replaced climate change by jews in order to show the absurdity of the argument. General consensus does not determine the degree of truth. I&#8217;m not a climate change denier nor a climate change apologist, but it seems really problematic to take always the &#8220;general consensus&#8221;-argument as a justification, considering all the stupidity that has spread in the name of &#8220;general consensus&#8221;.</p>
<p>[George write- this is a baffling comment Pearl. Jews are not a problem and never have been one- but there is an overwhelming consensus that many millions were brutally murdered and that we should not forget the crime. Isn't it sometimes worth going with the consensus?]</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Hadfield</title>
		<link>http://climatedenial.org/2007/03/14/stuff-and-nonscience/comment-page-1/#comment-4180</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Hadfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Apr 2007 05:28:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climatedenial.org/2007/03/14/stuff-and-nonscience/#comment-4180</guid>
		<description>Mark, it&#039;s a bit strange to complain about &quot;no citation of how, when, where, and by who&quot; when the article has cited five papers. (It says four, but there are five listed.)

I agree that it&#039;s a challenge for anyone, let alone a non-specialist, to read those papers and understand what they do and don&#039;t mean, how reliable they are, etc. They are various things you (and I) can do. One is to read the articles about these issues on the RealClimate blog. Another is to read the IPCC report, which also covers this ground. Another is to ask questions in appropriate forums--I think the Google globalchange group is a good one. I guess another is to believe TV programs produced by people who stretch and mislabel the graphs to make them support their argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, it&#8217;s a bit strange to complain about &#8220;no citation of how, when, where, and by who&#8221; when the article has cited five papers. (It says four, but there are five listed.)</p>
<p>I agree that it&#8217;s a challenge for anyone, let alone a non-specialist, to read those papers and understand what they do and don&#8217;t mean, how reliable they are, etc. They are various things you (and I) can do. One is to read the articles about these issues on the RealClimate blog. Another is to read the IPCC report, which also covers this ground. Another is to ask questions in appropriate forums&#8211;I think the Google globalchange group is a good one. I guess another is to believe TV programs produced by people who stretch and mislabel the graphs to make them support their argument.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://climatedenial.org/2007/03/14/stuff-and-nonscience/comment-page-1/#comment-4074</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Apr 2007 14:11:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climatedenial.org/2007/03/14/stuff-and-nonscience/#comment-4074</guid>
		<description>This article is so &quot;concise&quot; it says virtually nothing.  It references only four (4) supposedly peer-reviewed papers.  There is no analysis of the authors of these papers, or of the peer reviewers.  The author should do that, and present his findings as completely, factually, and honestly as possible, and let the public decide if these questions have been answered so &quot;convincingly&quot;.  I, for one, am getting tired of having my questions about global warming answered with a simple, dismissive, &quot;That&#039;s already been conclusively proven.&quot; with no citation of how, when, where, and by who.

Until then, I guess I&#039;m supposed to just believe the author because he cites four papers from a branch of science where that many papers are likely published daily, if not hourly.

As I tell anyone who tries to attack me personally for not having made up my mind on the topic of man-made global warming, it&#039;s fine to have beliefs, just don&#039;t try to turn your beliefs into facts that I&#039;m supposed take at face value.  If you&#039;re unwilling to face questioners, you probably don&#039;t have the facts and are trying to hide something.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This article is so &#8220;concise&#8221; it says virtually nothing.  It references only four (4) supposedly peer-reviewed papers.  There is no analysis of the authors of these papers, or of the peer reviewers.  The author should do that, and present his findings as completely, factually, and honestly as possible, and let the public decide if these questions have been answered so &#8220;convincingly&#8221;.  I, for one, am getting tired of having my questions about global warming answered with a simple, dismissive, &#8220;That&#8217;s already been conclusively proven.&#8221; with no citation of how, when, where, and by who.</p>
<p>Until then, I guess I&#8217;m supposed to just believe the author because he cites four papers from a branch of science where that many papers are likely published daily, if not hourly.</p>
<p>As I tell anyone who tries to attack me personally for not having made up my mind on the topic of man-made global warming, it&#8217;s fine to have beliefs, just don&#8217;t try to turn your beliefs into facts that I&#8217;m supposed take at face value.  If you&#8217;re unwilling to face questioners, you probably don&#8217;t have the facts and are trying to hide something.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://climatedenial.org/2007/03/14/stuff-and-nonscience/comment-page-1/#comment-3928</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Mar 2007 18:08:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climatedenial.org/2007/03/14/stuff-and-nonscience/#comment-3928</guid>
		<description>Brian, it just means &quot;the buildup of greenhouse gases has swamped the influence of fluctuations in solar energy on the planet’s temperature&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian, it just means &#8220;the buildup of greenhouse gases has swamped the influence of fluctuations in solar energy on the planet’s temperature&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Orr</title>
		<link>http://climatedenial.org/2007/03/14/stuff-and-nonscience/comment-page-1/#comment-3699</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Orr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:02:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climatedenial.org/2007/03/14/stuff-and-nonscience/#comment-3699</guid>
		<description>&quot;Today, scientists tell us, the sun exerts about 15 percent of the external forcing of our climate, while CO2 and the other gases are responsible for about 85 percent of the heating. In other words, the buildup of greenhouse gases has swamped the influence of the sun on the planet’s temperature.&quot;

What does this mean? Without the sun the greenhouse effect comes to nothing. All of our heat, apart from a small contribution from the Earth&#039;s core itself and a small amount from the heat released by the combustion of fossil fuels and wood, comes from the sun.. &quot;All&quot; that greenhouse gases do is trap a significant amount of solar energy which would other wise be &#039;lost&#039; in space.

Perhaps what the above statement means is that 15% of the sun&#039;s energy falling on the earth is absorbed by the earth&#039;s surface and 85% is trapped by greenhouse gases. Presumably to this account should be added the small amount of heat radiated by the earth that escapes to space and the larger amount of heat that manages to get past the greenhouse gases.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Today, scientists tell us, the sun exerts about 15 percent of the external forcing of our climate, while CO2 and the other gases are responsible for about 85 percent of the heating. In other words, the buildup of greenhouse gases has swamped the influence of the sun on the planet’s temperature.&#8221;</p>
<p>What does this mean? Without the sun the greenhouse effect comes to nothing. All of our heat, apart from a small contribution from the Earth&#8217;s core itself and a small amount from the heat released by the combustion of fossil fuels and wood, comes from the sun.. &#8220;All&#8221; that greenhouse gases do is trap a significant amount of solar energy which would other wise be &#8216;lost&#8217; in space.</p>
<p>Perhaps what the above statement means is that 15% of the sun&#8217;s energy falling on the earth is absorbed by the earth&#8217;s surface and 85% is trapped by greenhouse gases. Presumably to this account should be added the small amount of heat radiated by the earth that escapes to space and the larger amount of heat that manages to get past the greenhouse gases.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Ritzenhein</title>
		<link>http://climatedenial.org/2007/03/14/stuff-and-nonscience/comment-page-1/#comment-3689</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Ritzenhein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Mar 2007 13:41:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climatedenial.org/2007/03/14/stuff-and-nonscience/#comment-3689</guid>
		<description>This is the most concise and lucid synopsis of the GW debate I have read anywhere, including Real Climate.  Gelbspan cuts through the scientific nitpicking and hesitancy, as well as the disingenuous, agenda-driven obfuscation of the moneyed interests.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the most concise and lucid synopsis of the GW debate I have read anywhere, including Real Climate.  Gelbspan cuts through the scientific nitpicking and hesitancy, as well as the disingenuous, agenda-driven obfuscation of the moneyed interests.</p>
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		<title>By: Diana Korchien</title>
		<link>http://climatedenial.org/2007/03/14/stuff-and-nonscience/comment-page-1/#comment-3684</link>
		<dc:creator>Diana Korchien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:48:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climatedenial.org/2007/03/14/stuff-and-nonscience/#comment-3684</guid>
		<description>Channel Four should give this man a programme in which he cross-examines the programme makers...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Channel Four should give this man a programme in which he cross-examines the programme makers&#8230;</p>
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